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poop
Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 12:19 am Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 22 Sep 2004 Posts: 1029 Location: USA
There are other reasons to consider.

TNL staff preferred 0 coldown also, SCTFL admins were thinking about a small cooldown, but since there were more people overall going for 0 cooldown, we decided to go with 0.

Also, 1 second cooldown provides an advantage to 1-hits and semi-autos because only 1 hits and semi autos can kill someone that quickly. So it was either going to be 0 seconds or a longer cooldown, and we decided to go with 0 seconds.


Last edited by poop on Wed May 09, 2007 12:40 am; edited 1 time in total

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DragonSlayer
Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 12:27 am Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 06 Aug 2005 Posts: 1114 Location: Finland
[SW] Perry wrote:
Tactics you call that nowadays...
Well nevermind then, you're the boss. If you think healthpacket-camping provides a better gameplay for all of us, ok let it stay that way.
Peace & out.

I seriously don't think health camping is a problem in the least, and it's easy to prevent anyway. And yes, stealing health is a tactic, a good one at that, and can make a huge difference in some maps like Laos. So yeah, it provides better gameplay in our opinion, especially when it comes to tactics and teamplay, both important in clan wars.

I'm sure some people would prefer cooldown while others wouldn't. We can't please everyone and like mentioned, TNL is going with no cooldown as well and we want to stick with same setting.

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[SW] Perry
Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 12:43 am Reply with quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2004 Posts: 295
Imho setting it to 0 just provides advantage to laggers.
You see, if you hit the one lurking in the packets with a nade or a 1hit weapon, which won't kill him due to lag or hitreg or whatever, you're fucked. If you have an automatic and shoot at him, he will leech every fucking healthpacket.
Now with the Cooldown, and be it just 1 sec, I have a chance to kill him with my primary, if my nades just hurt him (as usually). See my point?
And dont say this doesn't happen. It happens often, too often to me, especially on Laos. ^^

I dont want to start a rant or something. I just want to push your thoughts in a different direction, cause I think you admins made a mistake here.
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xurich
Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:07 am Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 11 Dec 2005 Posts: 271 Location: Pennsylvania, USA
We understand—and we strongly encourage all participants to voice their opinion on these matters. We did test the cool down for a little over a week (I believe that's how long it was, it could have been a bit longer or shorter, I have memory lapses), so we didn't rush into this decision without playing with the option and weighing on the question carefully. In the beginning, most of us were strongly opposed to it, but as the time came to make a decision after we had tested it for a while, a few of the admins were a bit more willing to try it out at 2 seconds (we considered 1 second rather pointless as it's not likely that any gun besides one hitters would kill in that amount of time), but even those admins seemed to prefer no cool down at all, mainly for the reasons outlined by DragonSlayer.

We're sorry to those who wished to see health cool down in the league. Perhaps views and opinions will change over the course of this season and it'll be implemented in one of the future seasons, but right now we don't see any problem with it as it is.
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Ouchek
Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 7:03 am Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 738 Location: France
[SW] Perry wrote:
Imho setting it to 0 just provides advantage to laggers.
You see, if you hit the one lurking in the packets with a nade or a 1hit weapon, which won't kill him due to lag or hitreg or whatever, you're fucked. If you have an automatic and shoot at him, he will leech every fucking healthpacket.
Now with the Cooldown, and be it just 1 sec, I have a chance to kill him with my primary, if my nades just hurt him (as usually). See my point?
And dont say this doesn't happen. It happens often, too often to me, especially on Laos. ^^

I dont want to start a rant or something. I just want to push your thoughts in a different direction, cause I think you admins made a mistake here.


If you had come up with a better arguement that the lag, we could maybe change our mind (for a further season though), but the lag lol.

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[SW] Perry
Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 11:11 am Reply with quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2004 Posts: 295
@Ouchek: My argument is as good as "it's part of the tactics" by a certain admin, and its practical. I don't see why its so hilarious, when even czechs complain about hitreg nowadays... Its also better than your argument, lol !:)

"Dragonslayer: 1 second wouldn't be long enough because you can't kill a player with full health in one second with all the weapons which wouldn't be good."

Then set it to 2 seconds?

"Poop: Also, 1 second cooldown provides an advantage to 1-hits and semi-autos because only 1 hits and semi autos can kill someone that quickly. So it was either going to be 0 seconds or a longer cooldown, and we decided to go with 0 seconds."

And removing it completely doesn't provide any more advantage to 1hits, I see. ;)
Imho you just nullified semis and automatics and pushed 1hits in that case.

If you raise Cooldown to 2 seconds, you will be able to counter healthpacket-leeching with any given weapon. Which would be more fair than giving only advantage to one particular group of weapons, the 1hits.


" Poop: TNL staff preferred 0 coldown also"
But I'm talking to SCTFL staff now, am I not? I thought SCTFL isn't linked to TNL in any way.


So practically your only argument against raising the cooldown to more than 1 second is: "it's part of the tactics to steal all the health packs and with, say, 2 seconds cooldown it would be too difficult and not as good in our opinion."

Its not that difficult, you just need more try's, its taking longer until every healthpacket is gone. One player can't leech every healthpacket on his own at once anymore. It could provide new tactics and even more need of teamplay, which is a good thing imho.

I dont see why you are all against it so much. :o
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DragonSlayer
Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 12:18 pm Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 06 Aug 2005 Posts: 1114 Location: Finland
Quote:
"Dragonslayer: 1 second wouldn't be long enough because you can't kill a player with full health in one second with all the weapons which wouldn't be good."

Then set it to 2 seconds?

I already said why we thought 2 seconds is too much.

Quote:
But I'm talking to SCTFL staff now, am I not? I thought SCTFL isn't linked to TNL in any way.

It's rather obvious we want to use the same standards. It's pretty troublesome for clans to switch server settings depending on whether it's a SCTFL, TPC or TNL war, especially if they will run at the same time.

Like I said, it's obviously a matter of preference. You would prefer a cooldown and therefore think your opinion is right. We disagree and think no cooldown is better. There really isn't more to it and I agree with xurich that it's good that you are voicing your opinion on this subject and it might be different for next season, but I seriously doubt we will change it for this season because I don't see how "we made the wrong decision". That's a rather strong way to put it and even kind of offensive, you almost make it sound as if your opinion is more valid than ours.

Quote:
Its not that difficult, you just need more try's, its taking longer until every healthpacket is gone. One player can't leech every healthpacket on his own at once anymore. It could provide new tactics and even more need of teamplay, which is a good thing imho.

But the way we see it, is that it's TOO difficult even if it's still possible. Maybe if the amount of health packs was reduced in all the maps, then this could be possible. But I doubt that will happen as Soldat doesn't revolve around our league.

Quote:
I dont see why you are all against it so much. Surprised

Because we genuinely think no cooldown is better. Do you think we didn't go through all this when we were deciding what to use? I can ensure you we did, and this is the conclusion we reached. Maybe we'll make a poll after the season is over and see what the majority wants but I seriously doubt it will change in middle of the season. We appreciate your opinion though.


Last edited by DragonSlayer on Wed May 09, 2007 12:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Ouchek
Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 12:53 pm Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 738 Location: France
[SW] Perry wrote:
@Ouchek: My argument is as good as "it's part of the tactics" by a certain admin, and its practical. I don't see why its so hilarious, when even czechs complain about hitreg nowadays... Its also better than your argument, lol !Smile


Well It is a part of a the tactics to steal meds. Also when someone is medwhoring you just have to throw a nade on his feet and he's dead (normally) which is quicker than trying to kill him when he's in the air, that's why I believe medwhoring isn't a problem.
Also Czes lag, germans lag, french lag, everyone lags, til mm releases some super version without lag, you'll have to deal with it.

Quote:
"Dragonslayer: 1 second wouldn't be long enough because you can't kill a player with full health in one second with all the weapons which wouldn't be good."

Then set it to 2 seconds?


As my admins fellows said, it was either 0 or 2, and we already exlained why 2 was too long, you can not steal the meds anymore in a row (which is a tactic again) and besides it only really matters on Laos. So yea no big deal.

Quote:
"Poop: Also, 1 second cooldown provides an advantage to 1-hits and semi-autos because only 1 hits and semi autos can kill someone that quickly. So it was either going to be 0 seconds or a longer cooldown, and we decided to go with 0 seconds."

And removing it completely doesn't provide any more advantage to 1hits, I see. Wink
Imho you just nullified semis and automatics and pushed 1hits in that case.


And NO! You're wrong, because with the cool down you can not kill the guy with a semi or an auto til the meds all disappeared, he can stay there a while but since without the cooldown meds disappear more quickly, you may kill that guy more easily.
If you raise Cooldown to 2 seconds, you will be able to counter healthpacket-leeching with any given weapon. Which would be more fair than giving only advantage to one particular group of weapons, the 1hits.


Quote:
" Poop: TNL staff preferred 0 coldown also"
But I'm talking to SCTFL staff now, am I not? I thought SCTFL isn't linked to TNL in any way.

What if SCTFL used 4 nades and TNL 3, how would you deal with it? we obviously had to know their opinion about it to make our own rule, so people wouldn't have troubles with setting their servers.

Quote:

Its not that difficult, you just need more try's, its taking longer until every healthpacket is gone. One player can't leech every healthpacket on his own at once anymore. It could provide new tactics and even more need of teamplay, which is a good thing imho.

I dont see why you are all against it so much. Surprised


We thought about it long enough, it won't change this season.

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[SW] Perry
Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:06 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2004 Posts: 295
@Ouchek: "...just have to throw a nade on his feet and he's dead (normally)... "

I know what to do when someone is medwhoring, but thx for your hint. Take a look at my 3. post here in the thread pls.



@Dragonslayer: "...it only really matters on Laos."

What about Nuubia, Equinox, Voland, Run? I think this matters on any map where the Flag is near some medpacks.




@Dragonslayer: "That's a rather strong way to put it and even kind of offensive, you almost make it sound as if your opinion is more valid than ours."

You don't know what is offensive...
I just have an oppinion, and i think its right, so i try to convince people. Exactly what you do. I didn't meant to be offensive. Sorry if i was.



@Dragonslayer: "Because we genuinely think no cooldown is better. Do you think we didn't go through all this when we were deciding what to use? I can ensure you we did, and this is the conclusion we reached."

You still fail to give arguments that can convince me or anyone that what you're saying is right. All you say is: "We think its better.", and its "a matter of preference."




@Ouchek: "And NO! You're wrong, because with the cool down you can not kill the guy with a semi or an auto til the meds all disappeared, he can stay there a while but since without the cooldown meds disappear more quickly, you may kill that guy more easily."

With cooldown=2 you can kill them with all weapons. And thus it doesnt matter if the Medi's are gone or not. You have a chance at any time, with any weapon. Problem solved.



"Ouchek: We thought about it long enough, it won't change this season."

The way I see it, there are 2 kinds of players concerning medpacks:

a) players who like to leech all the healthpackets and think its fun or part of a so called "tactic",
b) players who play with honour and think this is a lame way of playing and want to see it cut down or made more difficult by using the tools which we were given by MM.

It turns out SCTFL staff prefers playertype A, which is sad.
But at least you tried to understand my points. Thx for listening.

Peace&Out.




PS: If you say, dont whine Perry, deal with it, l2p, and other ihityoudead-arguments: What did the players do in late 1.2? They whined about Barret, and it was nerfed a bit in the next version. It was even prohibited to play with more than 1 in ESL.
(Of course medpackwhoring isn't THAT big deal, i'm not saying that! It was just an example. I could easily live without Cooldown. I just fail to see the reason why it wasn't introduced in SCTFL10.)

Pointing out a bad state is always the first step for a change. This is often mistaken and stamped as "whine!!" by a lot of (usually retarded) people, it became a quite fashionable and overused word nowadays.
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DragonSlayer
Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:22 pm Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 06 Aug 2005 Posts: 1114 Location: Finland
Quote:
@Dragonslayer: "...it only really matters on Laos."

What about Nuubia, Equinox, Voland, Run? I think this matters on any map where the Flag is near some medpacks.

I didn't say that, it was Ouchek. And you are right, it does matter in other maps too, like it should. I don't know what Ouchek was talking about. It doesn't matter in Nuubia though, as the health also spawns in middle of the map.

Quote:
You still fail to give arguments that can convince me or anyone that what you're saying is right. All you say is: "We think its better.", and its "a matter of preference."

If our arguments fail to convince you, then that's fine. We already know what you prefer and I understand that. But don't act as if you are talking for the whole community here, because you most certainly aren't. You are the only one arguing here and only stating your own opinions. And yes, we have a limited staff and that limited staff is in charge of making decisions. We'll go with what we think is better for the league. If after season it turns out that the community would prefer it to be otherwise, then we can change it if we agree with their reasons. Not to sound disrespectful but I think we are quite capable of making good decisions and SCTFL's success is proof of that.

Quote:
With cooldown=2 you can kill them with all weapons. And thus it doesnt matter if the Medi's are gone or not. You have a chance at any time, with any weapon. Problem solved.

It does matter. If you manage to steal all the medpacks, you can wound enemies and leave them wounded without them able to get health, giving you the upper hand. It is strategic and for example, you let players with low health pass you and let someone else take care of them so you have more time to grab flag and run away. The strategic value of this tactic is apparent.

Quote:
b) players who play with honour and think this is a lame way of playing and want to see it cut down or made more difficult by using the tools which we were given by MM.

Given by Enesce, actually. And as part of the beta team, I can actually tell you that the health cooldown is mostly aimed for pubs where it's sometimes a real problem. It doesn't really apply for leagues, and there's a reason why you can still keep it at 0. So that you know. There's nothing lame with stealing the health either, and I think it's ridiculous to claim otherwise. Camping health is another thing and again, it's not that hard to prevent with nades and swift attacks.

Quote:
It turns out SCTFL staff prefers playertype A, which is sad.
But at least you tried to understand my points. Thx for listening.

Again, you kinda make it sound like we prefer lame playstyle over fair sportsmanship. I don't think there's any truth to that as I have pointed out, nor do I think your arguments are any better than ours which is why I'll repeat myself once again: it's a matter of preference, neither option necessarily being better or worse than the other.

Quote:
PS: If you say, dont whine Perry, deal with it, l2p, and other ihityoudead-arguments: What did the players do in late 1.2?

We aren't going to say that, we already told you we appreciate your opinion on this subject.

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[SW] Perry
Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:59 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 24 Sep 2004 Posts: 295
"But don't act as if you are talking for the whole community here"
I'm not doing that. I'm just speaking my mind.


"Not to sound disrespectful but I think we are quite capable of making good decisions and SCTFL's success is proof of that. "

Of course you are. I know how much work it is running a league, and you are doing a fine job!
I thank you & all the other admins for it! Great Job, really.

But you aren't infallibly. I think we both want the best for this league, the game itself and enjoyable matches. We just have different oppinions on how to achieve that.


"there's a reason why you can still keep it at 0"
Same reason for weaponmods I assume... ;)


"There's nothing lame with stealing the health either, and I think it's ridiculous to claim otherwise."
This is your oppinion. You also think there is nothing lame in triple steyr, M79 jumping and Minigunsurfing (back in 1.2.1).
And you know me. I'm known for thinking anything of that is lame. ^^



"It does matter. If you manage to steal all the medpacks, you can wound enemies and leave them wounded without them able to get health, giving you the upper hand. It is strategic and for example, you let players with low health pass you and let someone else take care of them so you have more time to grab flag and run away. The strategic value of this tactic is apparent. "

Yes, thats quite a good tactic, you´re right. We try do that in SW most the time.
And normally you shouldn't have a problem doing that when the medpacks are present. If you let him pass in the middle of the map, where no healthpackets are present (except nuubia) the enemy barely can make it to the flag where the medpacks are, with someone else of your team blocking his way. Of course there HAS to be someone else blocking his way, not you respawning...and seeing him going into the medpacks. :)
So yea.
The presence of healthpacks in your base does not alter or affect that tactic in any way, imho.



"Again, you (quite intentionally) make it sound like we prefer lame playstyle over fair sportsmanship"
Well so it seems to me, yes. Did you just agree with me that medwhoring is lame?^^
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xurich
Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 3:21 pm Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 11 Dec 2005 Posts: 271 Location: Pennsylvania, USA
The entire discussion is only going in circles now, and it seems at this point that the argument is based more around semantics than reasons why med cooldown should or should not be enabled. Seeing as both parties have largely summed up their opinions on the matter and have left little more to be said, I think it's best that we leave it here for now. As DragonSlayer mentioned, we will probably make a poll at the end of the season to determine the community's perspective on the matter, but it's extremely unlikely that we will alter our decision now that this season has begun.

Perry, please do not see this as an attempt to quiet you or anything of that sort—I am merely attempting to end an argument in which both sides have presented nearly (if not all) all of their points and in which neither side is likely to convince the other of anything. If you have anything new to bring to the table, feel free to bring it up, but I suggest saving this discussion for the poll at the end of the season, as it will be more influential and pull more weight then.
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DragonSlayer
Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 4:54 pm Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 06 Aug 2005 Posts: 1114 Location: Finland
Quote:
"There's nothing lame with stealing the health either, and I think it's ridiculous to claim otherwise."
This is your oppinion. You also think there is nothing lame in triple steyr, M79 jumping and Minigunsurfing (back in 1.2.1).
And you know me. I'm known for thinking anything of that is lame. ^^



"It does matter. If you manage to steal all the medpacks, you can wound enemies and leave them wounded without them able to get health, giving you the upper hand. It is strategic and for example, you let players with low health pass you and let someone else take care of them so you have more time to grab flag and run away. The strategic value of this tactic is apparent. "

Yes, thats quite a good tactic, you´re right. We try do that in SW most the time.

So wait, do you admit you play tactics you find lame? I mean, first you say stealing health is lame and then you say that you try to do it most of the time.

And yeah, I don't find M79 boosting lame, nothing wrong with boosting. I don't think surfing with minigun is lame either because you don't even have a primary weapon to fight with when you surf and using a certain weapon is most definitely not lame, lame is the way you use it. If you use three steyrs and play fair them, it's all cool. If you spray with them, then that's another story and I most definitely find that lame.

Anyway, I agree with xurich: we have both presented our arguments and this is only going in circles now.

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Blade
Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 9:45 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 Sep 2004 Posts: 755 Location: Ontario, Canada (Mississauga)
Not trying to be a bitch but I agree with Perry...healthwhoring/stealing the enemy's health isn't a tactic...

First off, let me start with health whoring. It's basically the best defense against any auto, because the person in the health can shoot you plenty before you throw the nade, then they avoid nade and ur almost dead, making it nearly impossible to kill him.

As for tactic of stealing healths, that wouldn't be a problem either, because if neither team could health whore the opponent's health, then neither team would hold all of the med packs. The entire circumstance of all the medpacks in 1 base is STARTED because of no healthcooldown.

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poop
Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 10:56 pm Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 22 Sep 2004 Posts: 1029 Location: USA
Quote:
Not trying to be a bitch but I agree with Perry...healthwhoring/stealing the enemy's health isn't a tactic...


I disagree. Dslayer already explained why, no reason to repeat.

Quote:
First off, let me start with health whoring. It's basically the best defense against any auto, because the person in the health can shoot you plenty before you throw the nade, then they avoid nade and ur almost dead, making it nearly impossible to kill him.


This would be the same case unless med cooldown is 3+ seconds. And when I was asking around at the start of the version, everyone I asked disliked a 3 second cooldown.

Quote:
As for tactic of stealing healths, that wouldn't be a problem either, because if neither team could health whore the opponent's health, then neither team would hold all of the med packs. The entire circumstance of all the medpacks in 1 base is STARTED because of no healthcooldown.


This is false, when medpacks starting respawning on your base if you stole them from opposing base, it was implemented to be a tactic. The entire circumstance was introduced because of being implemented, not because of nohealthcooldown. I forgot exactly which version this was implemented in, but before meds used to respawn in the same base, which is far worst then being able to steal meds. Always think of the contrary. The 1 defender tactic or defensive clanwar play was really stopped only when this feature was implemented. And I think many or most people prefer rushing/fast-paced gameplay rather than the 1 defender tactic or defensive gameplay.

Another thing is that we are not going to use SCTFL leagueplay to test a feature like this. We had 1 week to test the feature on NA gathers and euro gathers, and we thought that no cooldown is preferable. Rather than risking adversely affecting gameplay by introducing a med cooldown, we decided to go with what we already know the effects of (No cooldown).

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