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<  SCTFL Staff Talk  ~  Hiding scenery - Allowed or not?

DragonSlayer
Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 10:54 pm Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 06 Aug 2005 Posts: 1114 Location: Finland
This came up today and we have to clarify if it's allowed or not. Tell us your opinion on it so that the rule can be added ASAP if it's going to be added.

Why it should not be allowed?
- Gives a very clear advantage over other players
- Is considered unfair for the above reason
- Goes against the current rule which prohibits anything advantageous
- Makes people aware it's not allowed and someone who hides scenery might stop doing it

Why it should be allowed?
- Soldat doesn't prevent it and it kind of is modding
- Adding such a rule might make some people aware it's possible and therefore they might do it despite being against the rules
- Might be hypocritical to ban it but not everything what is advantageous even in slight ways, eg. changing nade color to blue (easier to see)
- Hard to prove (screenshots are pretty much the only 100% sure way)

As for me, I think it should not be allowed. We have always worked on base-to-base casis and despite that it might seem a bit hypocritical, we shouldn't turn blind eye to it because it gives a very obvious advantage and can clearly influence the outcome of many matches. And despite that it might make some people aware of the possibility to remove your scenery, it also makes people aware it's not allowed. I think a rule like this would work the best:

"Removing or hiding scenery is strictly prohibited for the reason it gives you a very clear advantage over other players and is not considered fair play, which our league encourages."

Your opinions? Please try to post as soon as possible as I locked one topic for hiding scenery but after that Poop brought up why he thinks it should be allowed.


Last edited by DragonSlayer on Fri May 25, 2007 2:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

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poop
Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 11:15 pm Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 22 Sep 2004 Posts: 1029 Location: USA
Not that I think it should be "Allowed". In a perfect ideal world it would not be allowed. But I was thinking in a practical sense rather than in a idealistic sense. I don't think we should void matches due to this.

Here is my solution:

Instead of adding something like this to rules, and explicitly voiding matches because of it, we should go to the specific player PRIVATELY and encourage them to not use a modification like this. Ill explain why this is more effective than banning it and explicitly voiding matches.

1. When we ban it, it will still be possible to use the mod. If we privately encourage them not to use it, they can still use the mod. We can say "It is considered unsportsmanlike" and "You should not use it". This will be as effective as a rule when an admin says it.

2. My personal belief is that not many people know that this is possible, and many that do know dont use it because its difficult to implement. By putting it in the rules and voiding matches, we are making more people aware that something like this is possible.

3. Considering that it is difficult to impossible to prove someone uses this mod, we are relying on the decision of actual players to not use it (You can just tell another player to post screenshots). I think both me and Dslayer agrees on this. We are saying that outlawing this will hopefully cause less players to use it, but I think privately telling them its a tactic which is looked down upon/considered unfair will have the same effect. Considering we rely on the individual player, if someone is going to continue using it after we go to them privately, they will continue using it even if its outlawed explicitly.

I don't think many people use transparent sceneries in the first place, so this would be possible logistically and makes sense logically.

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Ouchek
Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 2:14 pm Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 738 Location: France
I think it should not be allowed, but if you guys want it allowed, I'll just use it.

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xurich
Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 4:09 am Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 11 Dec 2005 Posts: 271 Location: Pennsylvania, USA
I don't believe that it should be allowed. I know that it's impossible to prove that a person isn't using scenery without screen shots, but that doesn't mean that we should simply condone it. It gives a pretty large advantage, and something such as that shouldn't be permitted.

The rules state that screen shots must be taken after every round, and if we, for whatever reason, suspect that a person is using invisible scenery, we can simply ask for his or her screen shots from that match. If that player doesn't have screen shots (or otherwise won't relinquish them), then another rule is violated, and the punishment should be the same as if we found that player using invisible scenery (match voided, and maybe we'll begin asking for that player's screen shots from periodic matches).

Because we rarely suspect players of using invisible scenery, I don't think the situation would arise too often, but at least we'd have a way of dealing with it should we suspect it.
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poop
Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 4:43 am Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 22 Sep 2004 Posts: 1029 Location: USA
The rule is not that every player must take screen shots after every round. Im surprised you would even think that.

The rule is there for reporting matches, screenshots must be taken after every round by atleast 1 player for situations where you report a match.

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DragonSlayer
Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 5:28 am Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 06 Aug 2005 Posts: 1114 Location: Finland
Quote:
The rule is not that every player must take screen shots after every round. Im surprised you would even think that.

Yes it is.

Quote:
Screenshots must be taken after every round. Demos are optional, but are recommended.


In SCTFL9 it was an efficient way to prove your innocence against a minimap hack, now it's a good way to prove that you do not have hidden scenery. I think screenshots should be compulsory without a doubt as they can be very useful. And just a reminder but in playoffs it's not just screenshots, demos are compulsory as well.

I can see how the rule might be a bit unclear to some so maybe it should say "Screenshots must be taken after every round by every player".

Moirae still hasn't posted though, so I suppose it's still too early to decide whether to add that rule or not.

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poop
Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 5:39 am Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 22 Sep 2004 Posts: 1029 Location: USA
Quote:

In SCTFL9 it was an efficient way to prove your innocence against a minimap hack, now it's a good way to prove that you do not have hidden scenery


What minimap hack?

Anyways, No, that specific rule does not mean every player must take screenshots after every round. If your proposing to change the rule or its implication now, then say it that way. Its not unclear the way you imply it to be, its simply not what you are saying because thats not how it was made and as far as I know and can see, the specific rule or its application hasn't been changed since sctfl 5. Unless this rules application was changed in SCTFL 9 but I cant find an announcement about it anywhere.

Ofcourse, if we make screenshots mandatory for every player for every round, then its possible to prove someone hiding sceneries. But still, I will stick to my proposal since I still haven't seen any reasons why its not better or as good as outlawing hiding sceneries directly (And adding a new rule to make screenshots required for everyone). And I dont think we can make screenshots mandatory for everyone for the whole season, because some people dont have space on thier harddrives to hold all those 1 MB screenshots of every round. Like me for example, I delete my screenshots every few days because otherwise it will eat up space on my harddrive.

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xurich
Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 6:48 am Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 11 Dec 2005 Posts: 271 Location: Pennsylvania, USA
poop wrote:
Ofcourse, if we make screenshots mandatory for every player for every round, then its possible to prove someone hiding sceneries. But still, I will stick to my proposal since I still haven't seen any reasons why its not better or as good as outlawing hiding sceneries directly (And adding a new rule to make screenshots required for everyone).

I think that your first line sort of answers the second one. The fact that it will be possible for us to prove when a person is using invisible scenery (and therefore enable us to take appropriate action, whatever we deem that to be) gives it an advantage over the system that you suggested. As I understood it, the main reason to implement your system is because it is impossible to prove that a person is using invisible scenery without screen shots. As you stated, that would not be a problem if each member was forced to take a screen shot after every round.

Another flaw that I find in your system is that we would still not explicitly outlaw the use of invisible sceneries. We would merely "suggest" that players take the honorable route. If they wished to continue using invisible scenery, they would do so with or without our approval, and we would have no way in which to punish them, even if we knew about it.

poop wrote:
And I dont think we can make screenshots mandatory for everyone for the whole season, because some people dont have space on thier harddrives to hold all those 1 MB screenshots of every round.

It shouldn't be necessary to keep screen shots from the entire season. After a few days (a week seems sufficient), players should be free to delete their screen shots from a match without worrying about us requesting them. It would be the equivalent of a statute of limitations.
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DragonSlayer
Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 7:05 am Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 06 Aug 2005 Posts: 1114 Location: Finland
I was always under the impression that screenshots were mandatory for all the players but I don't remember if we changed the rule for SCTFL9 or if we just assumed that's what the old rule means. In any case, let's just make it clear that screenshots are mandatory for every player and problem solved.

And like xurich said, you don't have to keep screenshots for the whole season, I doubt anyone does that. Just keep them until the match is counted and you can delete the screenshot, it's as simple as that.

I also agree with xurich that Poop's method isn't as good as creating a clear rule about it. We can prove hiding scenery and having a rule about it is much more efficient and better than just to suggest to not use it. Will sprayers stop spraying if you suggest it? No, it won't change a thing to be honest, and it would be a lot of extra work which is just not worth it.

So I'll continue supporting a rule against hiding sceneries and compulsory screenshots.

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Moirae
Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 4:56 pm Reply with quote
SRL Administrator Joined: 15 Mar 2006 Posts: 168 Location: Netherlands
Make the screens mandatory for every player, it's the only way we can enforce this. As for the rule itself, I guess it does provide an advantage and that's not what we're trying to promote.

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