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<  General Discussions  ~  Sctfl 11 Suggestions?

lordrohith
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:52 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 11 Jun 2006 Posts: 147 Location: Maryland, USA
Blade wrote:

Because the WORST thing about the rules thus far is that tying a shitty NA clan got us the same points as tying Asylum or EF...



Yeah, totally agree with that.
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s0ulblade
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:10 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 05 Mar 2007 Posts: 39
Yes I agree with Vvoot, i've just done a lot of counting and and i can compare the amount of cws that american clans have undertaken and cws that #tba.clan have undertaken between the 5th of may and the 16th of may, i've chosen these dates as between these tba were playing everyday from noon till midnight.

And i don't lie, we were honestly playing as much as we possibly could.

Between these dates the cws played are as follows:

#Tba.clan 40
|LP| 30 (even though they were already high up in the table)
~SM~ 26
TheWar 32

Now for the americans the average number of cws played were 29.
If all these matches were won:
With current rules :

#tba.clan would have 120 points
|LP| would have 150 points
~SM~ would have 130 points
TheWar would have 160 points


The average american points is 147 points and #tba.clan 120 points

If the intercontinental rule was +1 points for the americans:
|LP| would have 120 points
~SM~ would have 104 points
TheWar would have 128 points

The average american points is 117 and for #tba.clan 120 points

Now obviously the second situation is much more closer than the 1st situation.

Ok i may update this with more examples if i can bother to count. Xp

But i think this Shows that +1 intercontinental is fairer than +2.
(and this is without taking into consideration bonus points for 1st 20 matches but htis would not matter as all clans played more than 20 in each half.)


Last edited by s0ulblade on Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

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poop
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:17 pm Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 22 Sep 2004 Posts: 1029 Location: USA
Quote:
If you read correctly, my argument isnt that NAs play less and get same. It is that they play same amount of matches, and get more points. [or are able to do so anyway].


WTF? Where did you get that from. War played 77, R7 72, SM 84. Every euro playoff clan except SN (83) played more matches. How is that getting more points with the same amount of matches?

Assume points were +1 for intercontinental. R7 and war would both be out of playoffs, SM would be ranked 16th. Oh yeah wait thats definately fair right?

Ill explain another way, hopefully this way you understand

1. NA clans like R7, war, SM are online the same amount of time as clans like AE, BC.Crew, EF, SW, MG etc etc.
2. However NA clans don't have as many opponents to choose from so half the time they aren't playing a match, while euro clans can basically play a match anytime they want to since there is a huge chance there is another clan looking for a match at that time.
3. Even with +2 intercontinental points and same activity level time-wise, NA clans generally finish below euro clans in playoff rankings due to this problem
4. Your proposing decreasing the bonus of intercontinental matches which would knock the few NA clans (Who scramble to make playoffs) out of playoff contention. Even though these NA clans are better than and as active as the clans that would replace them in playoffs.
5. Not only this, other NA clans would drop to the bottom of the standings in playoffs, so basically with playoff rules where the higher rank has a advantage in euro vs NA matches, a NA clan has almost no chance to win the league even though they are as good and as active as other euro clans that are above them in the regular season.

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s0ulblade
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:28 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 05 Mar 2007 Posts: 39
poop wrote:

WTF? Where did you get that from. War played 77, R7 72, SM 84. Every euro playoff clan except SN (83) played more matches. How is that getting more points with the same amount of matches?


right now lets assume all the clans won all their matches

so what did the americans average? around 80 cws and the euro clans 100 cws.

so if the americans got +2 more for each cw (assuming no 1st 20 cws bonus points)

then it would be
americans 400 points euro 300 points.

if +1 for intercontinental then it would be 320 for americans and 300 for euros.

This of course would not be completely accurate as euro clans will have some intercontinentals and americans will have some non intercontinentals and this would balance out to be around the same amount of points for both americans and euros.

But this is for the top16 not overall, and overall it would be much more unbalanced for the EU clans.


Last edited by s0ulblade on Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:12 pm; edited 2 times in total

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crazymonkey
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:31 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 11 Dec 2005 Posts: 311
Look, I think most NA clans can agree that we worked our asses off to make playoffs. It was no easy ride. Sure being active is key here, but some people have lives outside of this game and being active 24/7 is pretty damn hard especially with how active this season was. And like Poop said, two NA clans in playoffs hardly seems like a fair season. Especially considering that some matches from the NA clans were wins against some of the higher up clans in the standings.
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poop
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:46 pm Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 22 Sep 2004 Posts: 1029 Location: USA
Ok Soulblade, ill compare it your way.

Euro clans in playoffs average matches played: 104.33
NA clans in playoffs average matches played: 83.25

Approximate intercontinental matches Euro clans: 15
Approximate Intercontinental matches NA clans: 45

With 2 point:
If they win all matches: Euro = 104.33 X 3 + 30 = 343
If they win all matches: NA = 83.25 X 3 + 90 = 339.75

With 1 Point:
If they win all matches: Euro = 104.33 X 3 + 15 = 328
If they win all matches: NA = 83.25 X 3 + 45 = 295

Now if you take out LP, which is a clan with 15 members, the differences would be huge. I actually counted LP in those comparisons. Also, if I start counting clans that didnt make playoffs, The differences would just get bigger up to where even with 2 points intercontinental euro clans have a large advantage.

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s0ulblade
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:01 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 05 Mar 2007 Posts: 39
poop wrote:
Also, if I start counting clans that didnt make playoffs, The differences would just get bigger up to where even with 2 points intercontinental euro clans have a large advantage.


thats not true the amount of matches played by foreign clans out of euro will average less outside the bracket but it will average very very very less for EU clans.

If we were to use all the clans in the SCTFL it would show that the intercontinental clans get a lot more points than EU clans, i wouldn't be suprised if the average for EU clans was around 30 and the average for outside eu clans to be about 50.
Meaning it would be greatly unbalanced for EU clans.

Therefore in my opinion it should be as DS originally said:

+2 for the first 20 matches and +1 after that and maybe they should still apply for ties too.

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=SF=|Weimor
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:18 am Reply with quote
Joined: 03 Oct 2006 Posts: 54
Another idea imo ( hm, it could be a very bad idea) is, could there be a limited number of cws a clan could play? I know, it isnt the idea of the free-playing system, but it would give some good, but more inactive clans a chance to get into the playoffs.
And as crazymonkey says, that NA clans worked there asses off to get into the playoffs...which clan in playoffs hasnt got to play so much soldat like never before? ^^

I cant help, but I dont like this System in this way...

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DragonSlayer
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:35 am Reply with quote
Administrator Joined: 06 Aug 2005 Posts: 1114 Location: Finland
After thinking and counting this about 30 times over, poop is pretty much correct, actually.

NOTE THAT ALL THESE VALUES ONLY USE TOP 16 CLANS (12 EU 4 NA) AS INDICATORS AND THEREFORE ARE NOT COMPLETELY ACCURATE OR POSSIBLY NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING ACCURATE

There are only 19 NA clans in SCTFL10. On the other hand, the amount of EU clans is most likely over 100. This is a good indicator of how much harder it's for NA clan to find a match. It's true that they can play EU clans and get extra points but it's also a fact that it's harder for them to get clan wars, meaning it's easier for EU clans to be active. In short:

NA clans have to get extra points because EU clans can be more active.
EU clans can/have to be more active because NA clans get extra points.

If NA clans got less extra points, it would also mean EU clans wouldn't have to be so active. However, EU clans would still have to compete against each other (even moreso since there would be more room for EU clans) and on the other hand, NA clans couldn't do anything about it because they can't play as much. Based on playoff clans, EU clans are on average 1.29 times more active than NA clans. Also keep in mind that EU clans on average have larger rosters but they also have more players to pick from.

These here are accurate numbers based based on top 16 clans, assuming they win all their matches:

Quote:
Duration of freeplay: 6 weeks
Number of matches clans get extra points for: 20
Points you get for non-IC matches during first 20 matches: 5 (+2 extra)
Points you get for IC matches during first 20 matches: 7 (+2 extra)
Points you get for non-IC matches after first 20 matches: 3
Points you get for IC matches after first 20 matches: 5

Approxmiate points EU clan gets for first 20 matches: 210.62
Approxmiate points NA clan gets for first 20 matches: 242.47
Approxmiate points EU clan gets for the rest of the matches: 209.55
Approxmiate points NA clan gets for the rest of the matches: 166.53
Approxmiate total points EU clan gets during all of freeplay: 420.17
Approxmiate total points NA clan gets during all of freeplay: 409

However, there are a few things to be considered:

1) Based on SCTFL10 playoffs, EU clans lost more matches on average (making this inaccurate since it was based on wins only)

2) There were over 2100 matches played in SCTFL10. The less activity there is, the more it impacts intercontinental rule. Less activity = advantage for NA clans since more activity = better for EU clans (since they are 1.29 times more active). Can we assume to reach these numbers again? What if SCTFL runs at the same time with TNL? Keep in mind that SCTFL10 started right after Soldat 1.4's release with no other leagues running after literally months of inactivity, which had a large impact on the success of this season. Then again, this shouldn't affect THAT much, but it has some impact.

3) Again, these could be very inaccurate numbers since they are based on playoff clans only.

However, it is apparent that +2 for intercontinental is better than +1 is.

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Enik
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:21 am Reply with quote
Joined: 07 Jun 2006 Posts: 48 Location: Netherlands
Cant it be just a bit more simple? If you wanna get into the playoffs, play matches and be able to win em! Then you will get into the playoffs.. It shouldnt be easy to get into em :p

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Ender
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:25 am Reply with quote
Joined: 05 Jul 2005 Posts: 495 Location: The Netherlands
So0lblade your calculations are wrong for two reasons:
- You assume NA clans will play just the same amount of matches if intercontinental points would be 1 instead of 2, however, these bonus points are there to ENCOURAGE more matches being played so if you decrease bonus points it will also decrease the amount of matches
- You forget that EU clans also get international bonus points...

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Nitro
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:30 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Posts: 169 Location: Finland
Just make it LAN and theres no whine. Blade has kindly offered to be the payments man

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